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* bonniot leaves00:15
* bonniot joins00:21
* dagobert joins00:31
Hi daniel, i'm just looking around for a few minutes.00:32
<bonniot>hi00:39
<dagobert>hi, it's a long time ago, that i have enough time to look around, but Don't mind me!, i will make in a few minutes my closing time00:47
<bonniot>what's new?00:49
<dagobert>to many work, too many projekts... but the most of them are simple, christian (rubber) have a more interesting part,00:51
i think in dezember i can get back to code00:52
but rubber told me that you make a good work... thanks00:53
<bonniot>you're welcome :-)
did you already ship an application that uses Nice?
<dagobert>oh, yes, haven't rubber you told that?00:54
i think in dezember i can tell you more and show you a few example of it00:55
<bonniot>sounds good
using gcj, right?00:56
<dagobert>for me was the biggest Problem with the licence, so that we can use nice, and that we compile it to a binary via gcj
yes :)
<bonniot>you use dynamic libds for that, right?00:57
i could change the license to allow static linking
<dagobert>oh, yes, you know
<bonniot>i think it would be better
<dagobert>yes, that is wonderful..
<bonniot>but rubber said there are other gpl libs anyway, so it does not matter for you
would that be easier for you, then?00:58
<dagobert>we have several problems with licenc.. and so we have several ask for changing liz
<bonniot>into gpl + linking exception?00:59
what are the other libs you are using?
<dagobert>in this time, we have a solution, but i will become a bigger project in Jan/Feb, than we make a new ProjectPlan, and..
and... i have a new discussion about programming language, about client/server tiers etc..01:00
<bonniot>what languages are you considering?
<dagobert>for the client may be c++ or java (GUI) for the server java/nice/ or01:02
or if the project a little bit smaller, than only a application server with java
<bonniot>is your experience with Nice positive?01:03
<dagobert>yes, it's has a lot of feature, i was missing in java,01:04
i like functional-language sometimes, and it is nice to have some features of that in nice01:06
<bonniot>:-)
<dagobert>yes, many of :)01:07
<bonniot>do you have a good resource about the choice between LGPL and GPL + exception ?01:08
a link?
<dagobert>not here, but i have make investigation on several licenz, like lgpl, gpl, bsd and so on, than to the european Patent-Rights ...01:10
<bonniot>so the problem with LGPL is that it prevents static linking, right?01:11
<dagobert>the problem is, that sometime there is a differenz of meaning and the real right01:12
yes
<bonniot>i read there are several linking exceptions to the GPL01:13
<dagobert>i mean the same problem of JBoss and Apache with the web applikation server source01:14
you know about the problem beetween jboss and apache?01:15
<bonniot>no01:16
<dagobert>short: jboss has opensource with LGPL, apache has use this code and now apache set the BSD as default liz.01:18
<bonniot>The libgcj library is licensed under the terms of the GNU General01:22
Public License, with this special exception:
As a special exception, if you link this library with other files
to produce an executable, this library does not by itself cause
the resulting executable to be covered by the GNU General Public
License. This exception does not however invalidate any other
reasons why the executable file might be covered by the GNU
General Public License.
that could be good01:23
<dagobert>and we have now a strictly directive, if i can use the code (libary etc.) we can use it for our projects. In the future
<bonniot>only i think the term "executable" is confusing, if you don't do native compilation
<dagobert>oh, its a little bit more complicated, this was the term for gcj?01:25
<bonniot>for libgcj
which is the class library for gcj
<dagobert>yes,01:26
<bonniot>it is now being merged with classpath, which has a similar exception:
Linking this library statically or dynamically with other modules is making a combined work based on this library. Thus, the terms and conditions of the GNU General Public License cover the whole combination.
As a special exception, the copyright holders of this library give you permission to link this library with independent modules to produce an executable, regardless of the license terms of these independent modules, and to copy and distribute the resulting executable under terms of your choice, provided that you also meet, for each linked independent module, the terms and conditions
f the license of that module. An independent module is a module which is not derived from or based on this library. If you modify this library, you may extend this exception to your version of the library, but you are not obligated to do so. If you do not wish to do so, delete this exception statement from your version.
<dagobert>i have this read a time ago01:27
its shortly like this:
if you compile it to a new programm, and the libgjc is only a01:28
mom...
back01:30
is the libgjc only the basic term, to have a running programm, and you can't replace the lib with a other lib, other code, so it's like the same lic like the compiler01:34
the meaning is: you can't write code, libs etc.. and separating the licence of the part, but only you can use it together...01:36
in this time, part: if you use a compiler to create a new programm, the lic is noncommittal for the new programm01:40
<bonniot>i wonder if I must put the full text of the exception in every source file. do you know?01:45
<dagobert>this was simple worded.01:46
yes
<bonniot>isn't this part obvious:01:49
provided that you also meet, for each linked
independent module, the terms and conditions of the license of that
module.
<dagobert>and you have to grant a chance to change to a alternative lib
<bonniot>that's what the LGPL do, right?01:50
i don't have to grant that, do I???
<dagobert>yes, but there is two parts of lgpl01:51
the first ist for dyn. lib etc.. and the second for static linking, and binarys
oh we must differ in program and lib,01:52
<bonniot>OK, but so that's why I will change not to use the LGPL anymore01:53
<dagobert>what is your wish, you want to protect your work, and what more... ?01:56
you can't say, its like the bsd liz, then you haven't any chance to protect your work01:57
<bonniot>what can't I say?01:58
no, i don't want bsd
<dagobert>i' don't know what the best practice is, i think the lgpl is good...
<bonniot>but my problem with it for the nice library is that it prevents static linking01:59
i want copyleft (if people distribute a modified version, they have to release the source)
<dagobert>maybe you have to say it's lgpl, and you can static linking
<bonniot>i think then it's easier to say gpl + free linking02:00
<dagobert>no, not for me :) because i can' t use it for a commercial programm02:01
<bonniot>why not?02:02
<dagobert>you want, that the programming language (compiler etc.) is gpl +free linking, the new programms but are free for any liz.02:03
<bonniot>the compiler itself is strict GPL, but nice.lang (and files that are needed to run user programs) are GPL + exception02:04
<dagobert>... and in this fact, the problem is, that i can't use the new programms without the nice.jar etc..
<bonniot>yes you can
you don't need nice.jar to run your programs02:06
<dagobert>...programs) are GPL + exception .. this exception are meaning compile with static linking or without static linking?
...you don't need nice.jar to run your programs ... mom...i think... i need nice.jar for ant... so i have use nice.jar for the new program... i don't know exactly..02:09
<bonniot>the exception is for both static and dynamic linking02:10
you need nice.jar for compiling, of course, with or without ant
but that's no problem
like you need gcc to compile your C programs, but your programs don't need to be GPL02:11
here is a possible new header for nice.lang:02:12
<dagobert>:)02:13
<bonniot>|****************************************************************************/
|* N I C E */
|* A high-level object-oriented research language */
|* (c) Daniel Bonniot 2003 */
|* */
|* This package is free software; you can redistribute it and/or modify */
|* it under the terms of the GNU General Public License as published by */
|* Free Software Foundation; either version 2 of the License, or (at your */
|* option) any later version. */
|* */
|* As a special exception, the copyright holders of this library give you */
|* permission to link this library with independent modules to produce an */02:14
|* executable, regardless of the license terms of these independent */
|* modules, and to copy and distribute the resulting executable under */
|* terms of your choice. */
|****************************************************************************/
i think i will go to bed now.
<bonniot>my opinion?02:15
<dagobert>wrong word
for your mind, for your requisition02:16
<bonniot>about what? sorry, I don't understand02:17
<dagobert>i mean, have you now, that what you need, have you your benefits
regardless of the license terms of these independent modules, and to copy and distribute the resulting executable under terms of your choice..02:18
you have to change it a little bit for you... you have to extend it for a term like mozilla... that all02:19
<bonniot>why do i have to change it?02:20
<dagobert>enhancements of nice.lang etc.. have to opensource for you02:21
<bonniot>that's in the GPL already
<dagobert>there was a part in mozilla like this,
no, because your special exception, the copyright holder...
<bonniot>the exception is only about linking, not enhancements02:22
<dagobert>ok,02:23
<bonniot>ok, i need to go now. please send email if you want to continue the discussion, or another day on irc :-)
<dagobert>ok, fine
so, have a good night02:24
<bonniot>you too
bye
<dagobert>bye
* bonniot leaves
* dagobert leaves

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